Links to Reported/Broadcast Debate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOXjZo3DjlY

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOXjZo3DjlY

The Controversy

So Simple!

The show’s host and debate moderator introduced the following proposition for debate:

“Revelation is a valid source of knowledge.”

Wyatt Mickas, in response, acknowledged the proposition, modified it into a question and affirmed:

“Is revelation a valid source of knowledge.”

However, Wyatt went on to claim:

“I didn’t even know the question before the thing started.”

So simple!

However, as simple as that appears to be, Dave Foda and his people went “nuts” in their online accusations against Wyatt Mickas for making that statement about not knowing the proposition/question to be debated.

See Dave’s FaceBook post at:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=720894978065211&set=a.107472856074096.13445.100004341456554&type=3&theater

Dave comes down pretty hard on Wyatt for what he said, but do you see anything in Dave’s referenced correspondence that presents the proposition/question as identified in the November 12, 2016 live broadcast?

I didn’t.

I tried and tried to get a link and a quote proving that Wyatt was given the proposition/question before the live event; to no avail, though there were numerous postings by Dave and the hosts of the event attempting to cover for what appeared to me to be a clear blunder on their part (i.e., falsely accusing Wyatt of having prior knowledge of the proposition/question).

I don’t know if Wyatt knew before hand or not, but I have yet to see any evidence that he did, and lots of evidence of what appears to be a cover-up of the blunder.

How difficult could it be to provide a link and an actual quote of where Wyatt was provided with the proposition/question for debate before the live event?

Pretty difficult it appears.  So difficult, perhaps, because Wyatt’s claim is true and he was not given that proposition/question before the live event.

As simple a matter as that is, it is really quite serious as it reflects on the character of those involved in the negotiations and their abilities to properly produce a debate.

While I believe Dave Foda is clearly off-track in his response, as are his people, Dave, despite efforts to diminish the importance of the matter by his people, knows how important it is as evidenced by the statements he makes in one of his most recent FaceBook comments on the issue as indicated below:

Link: https://www.facebook.com/dave.foda/posts/721433354678040

( Begin quote.)

LAST SATURDAY’S DEBATE (WYATT MICKAS vs. ME) – Shit just got stupid.

So, there’s now a ridiculously stupid stink that Wyatt Mickas was not provided with the topic of Saturday night’s debate against me (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOXjZo3DjlY) prior to the event; and he has been sticking by this narrative and he’s now being defended by some others. That’s complete bullshit. He was given all the information more than a week in advance, and he’d agreed to it. I figured that my post last night [1] would have answered that question, but it apparently didn’t have the effect I’d intended. So, I’ll provide further evidence.

In my post from last night, I showed that Wyatt DID know what the show was about, but I recognize that an argument could be convincingly made that it was a little too vague. However, that has very little bearing on the fact that he was provided with the pertinent information [2] – in an active PM session in which he was involved [3] – with a link to the show’s description [4].

True, Mickas did not respond directly to that single particular message, but that is not my fault, nor is it the fault of BTTP. Mickas is simply trying to cover up for the fact that he didn’t take it as seriously as he discovered that he should have, and trying to place the blame for that failure anywhere else but upon himself.

The show’s description says very plainly:

“On Saturday night, November 12th, Dave Foda (atheist) and Wyatt Mickas (presuppositionalist) will be debating the validity of presuppositionalism as a source for knowledge on the Beyond the Trailer Park platform.”

Mickas knew damn well what this was about [5][6][7]. He was provided with information at every step of the way, including in a group chat with the hosts / producers. He’s lying when he says that he didn’t know what it was about, and now he’s managed to convince people to support him.

Theists, if you can’t win a debate, admit it and re-strategize. Don’t try to blame the opposition because you failed.
__________________________________________________________

[1] http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=720894978065211&set=a.107472856074096.13445.100004341456554&type=3

[2] Link to the actual debate, plus the show description:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOXjZo3DjlY

[3] Mickas was only responding at sporadic times. I don’t know what Mickas’ schedule is like, but the fact remains that he did receive information more than a week before the debate on what we’d be discussion – and he allowed ME to pick the topic, from [1] (above) – so he has no excuse for trying to spin this around in such a way that it was my fault or BTTP’s fault for his lack of preparation. Additionally, he did consciously respond to a PM from me after I’d provided the link, so he did have the opportunity to study the link that I’d provided.

[4] The show’s official description stated very plainly: “On Saturday night, November 12th, Dave Foda (atheist) and Wyatt Mickas (presuppositionalist) will be debating the validity of presuppositionalism as a source for knowledge on the Beyond the Trailer Park platform.”

[5] http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=721431374678238&set=a.107472856074096.13445.100004341456554&type=3

[6] At the 15:12 mark in the debate, Mickas actually ACKNOWLEDGED that he knew what the debate was about (and went on for a full sixty seconds about the topic), and then hypocritically said beginning at the 16:21 mark that he didn’t know what the debate was about. If he didn’t know what the debate was about, WHY DID HE AGREE TO THE DEBATE? He is LYING.

[7] And at 22:50, I outlined it myself, and Wyatt ran with it. To say that he didn’t know about the topic is to admit that he is lying about it, especially because he ran with it at the 23:20 mark. He knew all along what this was about.

[8] And if that weren’t enough, Deborah McTaggart (the host and executive producer) outlined what the debate was about at the beginning at the live broadcast.

(End quote.)

I didn’t see it either!

I didn’t see anything that showed where the proposition/question in dispute was presented to Wyatt prior to the debate on November 12, 2016, and yet Dave Foda says “he’s lying”!

It’s a rather sad state of affairs when those negotiation for a debate on such an important subject of public interest cannot even agree on a proposition/question beforehand and then behave as in this case when such a simple matter is called into question.

I have repeatedly asked to be shown where I am in error, and no one has yet come up with the evidence showing where the proposition/question Wyatt said he had not been provided was provided (i.e., showing Wyatt to have a poor memory or to be a liar).

My last message at the time of this writing, posted to Dave and his people via the YouTube comments section where they posted the broadcast, is as follows:

Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOXjZo3DjlY

(Begin message dated November 15, 2016 about 11:00 AM MT.)

I’ve explained why it matters.

Perhaps you missed it.

You have effectively admitted that Wyatt was not given the proposition beforehand and that his statement to that effect was true.

I’ll take that as a win.

You can quibble all you want about matters not in dispute; you have effectively conceded the propriety of my claim. If you can’t resolve simple stuff like this, the prospect of effectively dealing with weightier matters is diminished.

Wyatt has now posted his version of the debate, and to give him a chance to clearly address the issue, I posted the following question to him via the comments there.

See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogsvZioB-sA

(Begin quote.)

See following references from above video:

“Revelation is a valid source of knowlegde.” (Deb around the 8:20 mark)

or

“Is revelation a valid source of knowledge?” (Wyatt beginning at the 14:50 mark)

and

“I (Wyatt Mickas) didn’t even know the question before the thing started.” (Wyatt around the 15:55 mark)

Wyatt, Do you stand by your claim that you were not given the proposition, which you modified into a question, before the November 12, 2016 live show?

(End quote.)

I’ll accept Wyatt’s answer of “yes” or “no” without the need for documentation from y’all.

(End message dated November 15, 2016 about 11:00 AM MT.)

I am not particular.

I welcome anyone’s input who might give testimony as to whether or not they found that proposition/question in the pre-debate correspondence and, if they did, the posting of the link and quote and any necessary directions as to where to find the quote in the correspondence.

I’ve looked and looked and haven’t found it and have, tentatively, concluded that the accusations from Dave and his people in response to Wyatt’s comment are unfounded, and troubling on a number of levels.

I could be wrong and, if so, welcome being shown that I am.

Someone!

Anyone!

I’m waiting!


UPDATE November 15, 2016 about 4:10 PM MT

Wyatt answers the question I put to him in the affirmative (i.e., with “yes”).

a-cast-412

UPDATE November 16, 2016

Dave Foda is doubling down on trying to defend his blundering and the blundering of his show hosts, now exhibiting clear signs of hypocrisy.

There is no good reason why Dave Foda should not have admitted to the problem, explained it, and apologized/corrected it.

If that is not the case, Dave had only to provide the link and the quote demonstrating, unequivocally, that Wyatt had been provided the proposition/question at issue before the live broadcast.

Now, all the more the unanswered question comes to mind; who actually came up with that proposition/question, when, and why wasn’t Wyatt given the opportunity to agree to debate it or some alternative, mutually acceptable, proposition?

We may never get this most simple matter resolved, and it may ever stand as a classic case study as to the failure of participants to adequately negotiate the proper logistical details necessary for such as event as was intended.

It may also stand as a warning that trying to deal with weightier matters with such people who have so steadfastly resisted properly dealing with this most simple of matters is not likely to be productive without considerable effort.

I might even propose that this matter and how it has been dealt with by Dave Foda and his people are more significant than anything else that was dealt with in the broadcast itself.

See:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CxZwZ15UcAAm-rx.jpg:large

a-cast-413

UPDATE November 16, 2016

I posted the following message to the show host’s archived broadcast at:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOXjZo3DjlY

(Begin quote.)

I notice that Dave Foda is doubling down on his blundering and now clearly demonstrated hypocrisy and so have updated my article at:

http://kehvrlb.com/dave-foda-v-robert-baty-the-mickas-controversy

That was to take into account Dave’s latest comments as illustrated and shown at:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CxZwZ15UcAAm-rx.jpg:large

My update on the kehvrlb.com site includes additional commentary.

If Dave cannot face up to the problem and deal effectively with it, I would recommend some of his people rally to help him out.

I’ve tried to help Dave resolve it, and he has not dared to come to me to address it.

Alternatively, all I really need to be shown I am in error is a link and a quote taken therefrom that shows Wyatt was given the proposition/question at issue prior to the live show.

If it exists, how hard can it be to bring it forth?

If it does not exist and it did not happen, what is it going to take to get Dave and his people to come clean about this most simple of matters?

(End quote.)

UPDATE November 16, 2016

Dave Foda’s people compound his problem.

See:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CxabkEmUkAA_w32.jpg:large

a-cast-415

Text Only of Above Exchange

1. From Beyond The Trailer Park

Robert, no one cares, not even Wyatt.

Knock it off or I’ll be forced to start removing new comments and I don’t want to have to do that.

2. From Robert Baty

Your monkeys. Your circus. Carry on as you will.

You have chosen a rather unfortunate course.

You might have at least revealed what you know about who came up with that proposition/question, how, and when.

Wyatt Mickas cared enough to claim, apparently rightly so, that he was not given the proposition/question before the live event. A very important matter regardless of what Wyatt might publicly have to say about it.

Dave Foda cared enough to go about calling Wyatt a “liar”, over and over again!

Dave Foda cared enough to keep up his rhetoric while refusing to actually document that Wyatt Mickas was provided the proposition/question before the live event.

I cared enough to try and resolve the matter, and there is no good reason why it should not have been quickly resolved. Instead, the “cover-up” has again escalated to being much more serious that the “crime”.

Maybe it will yet be properly resolved.

Maybe not.

End Text

UPDATE November 16, 2015

It appears Dave and his people are going to be content to defend their refusal to openly and honestly resolve the dispute regarding the proposition/question that was introduced in the broadcast.

The following is only the text of the latest exchange via the host’s YouTube broadcast comments section.  The messages were deleted about as quickly as they were posted.  Such tampering with the record just compounds their problem, in my opinion.

(Begin quotes.)

3. From Beyond the Trailer Park
 
I did reveal exactly what I know about who came up with the proposition question.
 
Wyatt was asked if he wanted to choose a topic and he said no.
 
Dave chose a topic as illustrated in his screen shot and the show description which was created well over a week before the show aired and made available to Wyatt.
 
Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
 
There’s no “cover up” other than in your own mind.
 
You’re acting like a rabid theist and frankly it’s beneath you Robert.
 
That’s all that will be said on the topic and anything else you post on that subject will be removed from now on.
 
MY channel, I always get the last word.
Period.
 
4. From Robert Baty
 
Indeed, you get to play it as you will.
 
I notice that you quite conspicuously said nothing, and showed nothing, that would identify who came up with that proposition/question that Dave and you, and others have yet to admit was NOT provided to Wyatt until the live show (which seems to be the case).
 
Part of the profit in such simple exercises, in my opinion, is to allow people such as Dave and You to demonstrate just how low you will go.
 
Apparently, such unseemly efforts as have been made in this simple matter are NOT “beneath y’all”.
 
It’s certainly good to know as folks might have opportunities to engage you in the future, especially if such engagements are in an adversarial context.
 
Wyatt’s claim remains un-rebutted, and the “cover-up” seems to be ongoing!
 
The show host said:
 
“Revelation is a valid source of knowledge.”
 
Wyatt converted that proposition to a question and answered “yes”:
 
“Is revelation a valid source of knowledge?”
 
Wyatt then stated:
 
“I didn’t even know the question before the thing started.”
 
Dave and you and others can accuse Wyatt of lying about that, but you have yet to demonstrate that he lied or even had, innocently enough, forgotten that it had been given to him.
 
Dave and you have NOT, NOT, NOT provided the record that shows Wyatt was given the proposition/question beforehand.
 
Apparently, you are content, having found yourself in a hole, to keep on digging.
 
I think, among other things, as such seems to be your course, it is important for me and others to be aware of that’s how you deal with even the simplest of matters.
 
Thanks for the demonstration.

 

(End quotes.)

UPDATE November 19, 2016

a-cast-426

 



Comments

Dave Foda v. Robert Baty – The Mickas Controversy! — 1 Comment

  1. After watching Dave Foda’s FaceBook page for awhile I am wondering if what appears to me to be rather unusual behavior regarding the Mickas matter is related to the other problems he has been trying to deal with for over a month; particularly his admitted alcoholism.

    It’s not always easy to tell when people like Dave are being real or just being Internet characters, but it seems like his alcoholism and other problems he talks about are real.

    In that context, I wonder to if Deb, the show host, knew about what was going on and just made a judgement error in trying to cover for Dave as indicated above.

    We may never know!

    Maybe if Dave really sobers up and ever gets around to considering his behavior in the Mickas matter he will realize his error, admit to it, and apologize for it.

    Maybe not.

Leave a Reply