Eli Ayala v. Robert Baty – Presuppositionalism – Kent Hovind v. Robert Baty

Watch for Updates

Originally Posted August 22, 2020

By Robert Baty

Link to Ayala YouTube Video Illustrated below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GtzcEBMwls

Over the years I have had a number of discussions with Presuppositionalists, with varying results. Sye Ten Bruggencate has refused to face me. I have had 2 somewhat formal debates with Jason Petersen. I have, more recently, had some extended, casual discussions in the comments section of Eli’s video interview featuring Sye Ten Bruggencate. Those discussions are archived elsewhere and may be referenced later.

Eli has yet to engage me in a serious discussions of what I see as the failings of Presuppositionalism.

I thought I would present the opportunity in this medium, and post an invitation below his most recent video illustrated above, in case he might choose to requite my love and come here to discuss relevant matters, in writing. That discussion can proceed in the comments section below this article, if Eli chooses to meet me here.

Update August 23, 2020

From my Twitter feed at:

https://twitter.com/BatyvHovind/status/1297623350353645568 (3 images below)

Update September 2, 2020

Go to video link for full context of discussion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GtzcEBMwls

Update September 3, 2020

This should bring to a close that effort, with Eli refusing to even try to rebut my claims regarding the failures of Presuppositionalism.

Update September 5, 2020

This is kinda funny!

Eli runs from me and into the arms of J.D. Martin!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ4OtZJyAkE

I also added comments to J.D. Martin’s FaceBook thread at:

https://www.facebook.com/dangilomartin/posts/1406931362834631

Update September 18, 2020

Eli Ayala is keeping his promise not to face me or dare to try and challenge my fundamental evaluation of Presuppositionalism, but he’s now, even though so busy, launched a book project, and another surrogate has attempted to take up for him.

Link to latest video about his book deal:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5oj5cS5Hwk

Screenshots from comments section below that video:

Link to article about Bahnsen’s “toothpaste argument”:

https://defenseofaith.wordpress.com/2015/10/29/the-toothpaste-proof-of-gods-existence/

I added this to the conversation at Eli’s place noted above:

Update October 5, 2020

Eli Ayala v. Robert Baty – Presuppositionalism Update!

Link to Eli’s broadcast today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDE82aVBrhs

(Go to link above, not graphic below, for video.)

Links to my articles on Eli and his Presuppositionalism:

http://kehvrlb.com/eli-ayala-v-robert-baty-presuppositionalism

and

http://kehvrlb.com/sye-ten-bruggencate-v-robert-baty-presuppositionalism

Despite the broadcast’s title, Eli dared not mention me by name nor address my specific criticism(s) of Presuppositionalism.

I did, however, find the broadcast of interest as far as providing some insight into Eli and his Presuppositionalism. Eli tried to explain, in presenting his deductive, modus ponens argument for the existence of God, that the first premise is “transcendental” and the way that is justified is by using the transcendental argument that a triune God is the only way knowledge is possible because only a triune God provides the “preconditions of intelligibility”.

In other words, he believes the premise to be true but cannot actually demonstrate it to be true. He presupposes it via transcendental wordplay.

Yep, that’s why it is called Presuppositionalism.

Grant the presupposition and they win.

Deny it and they lose.

Presuppositionalism provides NO “proof that God exists”.

Update October 6, 2020

Further references for consideration which, I believe, demonstrates that Eli failed to explicitly consider my criticisms of Presuppositionalism. Rather, he vindicated by criticisms.

Time marked link to comments illustrated below:

https://youtu.be/oDE82aVBrhs?t=4005

Link to comments illustrated below:

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/transcendental-arguments/

Update October 7, 2020

Eli Ayala is everywhere these days telling the same story and claiming to address objections while refusing to face me and/or my objection; that Presupp, despite claims for it, provides NO, NO, NO “proof that God exists”.

What Eli says actually vindicates my objection.

Link to Zac’s video illustrated below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbhehvAMwDA

Update October 12, 2020

Here we go again!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpN5ThMA7SU

In the comments section:

From Robert Baty

Eli’s argument, simplified:

Premise #1

If God did not exist, then no fact could be understood.

Premise #2

Facts can be understood.

Conclusion:

God exists.

So, why is it there are still atheists? (I know, I know, Eli doesn’t believe there are any real atheists, right; but that’s a different issue).

Eli presupposes Premise #1.

That’s why it’s called Presuppositionalism.

Grant Eli his presupposition and he wins.

Deny his presupposition and he loses.

Eli believes it, presupposes it.

That’s as close as he gets.

Just some of my thoughts on all of that.

http://kehvrlb.com/eli-ayala-v-robert-baty-presuppositionalism

From Arne Verster

So I’ve read this article of yours on Eli, and wow.

Friend, you have an obsession.

Anyway, it seems you’re implying that we believe that

“if God did not exist no fact can be understood”

on pure abritray faith, which is not the case.

We believe it first and foremost because of the impossibility of the contrary.

Deny it, and no fact can be properly understood (in a consistent non-Christian fashion, that is).

Rather, you take it on pure arbitrary faith that you can properly understand facts by making yourself the final and ultimate reference point in all facts.

Hence, you’re stuck in the egocentric predicament and you destroy the foundation for all knowledge.

Quick and easy!

Repent and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ who died for your sins on the cross, and rose in the third day defeating death.

The invitation is open.

You too can share in the riches of the Christian worldview.

From Robert Baty

It’s not about me.

It’s about Presuppositionalism and why it fails to provide any “proof that God exists” as is commonly claimed by such as Sye Ten Bruggencate, one of Eli’s featured Presuppositionalists.

I think you have confirmed my claims in my earlier comments with your added presuppositional beliefs.

I like to keep things simple, so let’s try this.

Proposition:

If God did not exist, then no fact could be understood.

– Eli Ayala: Affirm

– Arne Verster: Affirm

– Robert Baty: Deny

And the support for the affirmative of the proposition is…………..?

From Arne Verster

Impossibility of the contrary (like I said).

The Triune God of the Bible is the precondition if intelligibility.

You either regard Him as ultimate, or yourself.

The latter reduces you to absurdity.

There are multiple lines we could follow to demonstrate this, for now I’m genuinely interested in your answer the following:

You seem quite keen to engage in logical argumentation.

Care to provide a justification / grounding for your continued reliance on the universal, unchanging, immaterial and transcendent laws of logic?

Do you just arbitrarily presuppose them on blind faith?

Where are they located?

Why ought I argue in a logical and coherent fashion?

From Robert Baty

Your further appeal to presupposed assertions is so noted, as is your lack of anything more in support of Eli’s and your proposition.

You, Eli (Presuppositionalism) has nothing but presuppositions to support your claim that:

If God did not exist, then no fact could be understood.

I get it.

You don’t need to quiz me.

No questions are necessary.

You either have something more than presuppositions to support your proposition, or you don’t.

If you’ve got, feel free to present it.

I’ll either accept it, if you’ve got it, or try to explain why your effort fails to establish the proposition.

.

So, it turns out Arne Vester, my new adversary, is a wannabe Presupp apologist from South Africa, with his own organization.

Link to Personal Page

https://www.facebook.com/arne.verster.9

Link to organization page:

https://www.facebook.com/apologeticscentral

He also has a YouTube channel. Here’s one of his video links:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djqBU-Bf9Bw

Update October 13, 2020

Update December 4, 2021

Jason L. Petersen and I debated Presuppositionalism in days gone by.

https://www.facebook.com/IrenaeusofPensacola/posts/116613850844260

(Go to link above for full exchange.)

Update December 6, 2021

https://www.facebook.com/IrenaeusofPensacola/posts/117593954079583

Update June 16, 2023

Eli Ayala confirms my representations of Presuppositionalism and its problems in today’s short YouTube video at:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/GmBfHLt3hg8

Watch for Updates

Originally Posted August 22, 2020

By Robert Baty

Link to Ayala YouTube Video Illustrated below:

Eli has yet to engage me in a serious discussions of what I see as the failings of Presuppositionalism.

My Invitation to Eli

I also sent an invitation via Eli’s FaceBook page as shown below!

The following exchange has taken place at:

Update August 23, 2020

From my Twitter feed at:

Update September 2, 2020

Go to video link for full context of discussion:

Update September 3, 2020

This should bring to a close that effort, with Eli refusing to even try to rebut my claims regarding the failures of Presuppositionalism.

Update September 5, 2020

This is kinda funny!

Eli runs from me and into the arms of J.D. Martin!

I also added comments to J.D. Martin’s FaceBook thread at:

Update September 18, 2020

Eli Ayala is keeping his promise not to face me or dare to try and challenge my fundamental evaluation of Presuppositionalism, but he’s now, even though so busy, launched a book project, and another surrogate has attempted to take up for him.

Link to latest video about his book deal:

Screenshots from comments section below that video:

Link to article about Bahnsen’s “toothpaste argument”:

I added this to the conversation at Eli’s place noted above:

Update October 5, 2020

Update October 6, 2020

Further references for consideration which, I believe, demonstrates that Eli failed to explicitly consider my criticisms of Presuppositionalism. Rather, he vindicated by criticisms.

Time marked link to comments illustrated below:

Link to comments illustrated below:

Update October 7, 2020

Eli Ayala is everywhere these days telling the same story and claiming to address objections while refusing to face me and/or my objection; that Presupp, despite claims for it, provides NO, NO, NO “proof that God exists”.

What Eli says actually vindicates my objection.

Link to Zac’s video illustrated below:

Update October 12, 2020

Here we go again!

In the comments section:

From Robert Baty

Eli’s argument, simplified:

Premise #1

If God did not exist, then no fact could be understood.

Premise #2

Facts can be understood.

Conclusion:

God exists.

So, why is it there are still atheists? (I know, I know, Eli doesn’t believe there are any real atheists, right; but that’s a different issue).

Eli presupposes Premise #1.

That’s why it’s called Presuppositionalism.

Grant Eli his presupposition and he wins.

Deny his presupposition and he loses.

Eli believes it, presupposes it.

That’s as close as he gets.

Just some of my thoughts on all of that.

See also:

http://kehvrlb.com/eli-ayala-v-robert-baty-presuppositionalism

From Arne Verster

So I’ve read this article of yours on Eli, and wow.

Friend, you have an obsession.

Anyway, it seems you’re implying that we believe that

“if God did not exist no fact can be understood”

on pure abritray faith, which is not the case.

We believe it first and foremost because of the impossibility of the contrary.

Deny it, and no fact can be properly understood (in a consistent non-Christian fashion, that is).

Rather, you take it on pure arbitrary faith that you can properly understand facts by making yourself the final and ultimate reference point in all facts.

Hence, you’re stuck in the egocentric predicament and you destroy the foundation for all knowledge.

Quick and easy!

Repent and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ who died for your sins on the cross, and rose in the third day defeating death.

The invitation is open.

You too can share in the riches of the Christian worldview.

From Robert Baty

It’s not about me.

It’s about Presuppositionalism and why it fails to provide any “proof that God exists” as is commonly claimed by such as Sye Ten Bruggencate, one of Eli’s featured Presuppositionalists.

I think you have confirmed my claims in my earlier comments with your added presuppositional beliefs.

I like to keep things simple, so let’s try this.

Proposition:

If God did not exist, then no fact could be understood.

– Eli Ayala: Affirm

– Arne Verster: Affirm

– Robert Baty: Deny

And the support for the affirmative of the proposition is…………..?

From Arne Verster