Watch for Updates

Link to recent media interview with Megan Fox

https://bluntforcetruth.com/the-loss-of-due-process-an-interview-with-megan-fox-episode-457/

Excerpts

Megan Fox is an award-winning investigative journalist and author who writes for PJ Media. Her most recent book is called Believe Evidence: The Death of Due Process from Salome to #MeToo about the consequences of false allegations.

Connect with Megan Fox:

Website: www.pjmedia.com

Twitter: @MeganFoxWriter 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MeganFoxAuthor/

FaceBook account Megan used for exchange:

https://www.facebook.com/meganmelissafox

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Megan Fox contacted me via FaceBook Messenger on July 25, 2019 and wanted to engage me in a discussion.  I obliged, and for reasons that might appear obvious, I decided it important to archive the exchange here; for the record and reference.  On September 5, 2019, Megan Fox terminated the discussion and blocked me from the FaceBook account she was using for our exchange.

The Exchange

From Megan Fox

Hi Robert, I’m a reporter who has been investigating CPS corruption for several years. I came across your information on Fran Amato and wondered if you’d like to have a conversation about it. Basically I was fine with leaving her alone to do whatever she does but now her people are harassing me on Twitter for saying soverign immunity is a joke and they’ve pissed me off. If you could help me understand what she is doing I would appreciate it.

From Robert Baty

I’ve spent more time with other cases, but I know a little about her. We can have that conversation here if you wish, or feel free to suggest an alternative. I think I’ve seen you featured on James White’s Northwest Liberty News program, but only in passing.

From Megan Fox

Yes, I’ve been on NW Liberty news. I would be interested in speaking with people who have tried her method.

From Megan Fox

She seems to be linked to David Jose. His followers are harassing me on Twitter.

From Robert Baty

I don’t do Twitter much, but I do have an account. I don’t find it that user friendly and seems too limiting for what I prefer to do with social media.
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Yes, she and David Jose seem to be real chummy these days.
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Have you tried to get in touch with Arlena Willes. She seems quite connected to David Jose, Frances Amato, David Straight and others, and tried their gimmicks, to no avail.
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She doesn’t like me much.
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She was recently arrested, bonded out, for what she did, allegedly, to her child.
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I have an article on Arlena at:
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http://kehvrlb.com/lena-willes-the-magic-words
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It includes files to her federal case documents.

From Megan Fox

Do you have copies of the affadavits they claim work?

From Robert Baty

If you review Arlena’s documents, you will find what is labeled “affidavit” in one or more of the documents filed.
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You can also, as I recall, find something labeled “affidavit” as having been filed in David Jose’s own case which I have discussed at:
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http://kehvrlb.com/david-jose-romero-watson-his-federal-case
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From Megan Fox

I’m looking what you sent over…the writ of habeas corpus is legit though, right? That’s been ruled to be a legitimate tactic in juvenile court in higher courts.

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Sorry, typo…ruled by higher courts to be appropriate in custody cases.

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In a case I’m following in Colorado the writ of habeas corpus has been answered by the county and is going to be ruled on by the judge in 15 days.

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But it was filed by an actual lawyer and not pro se.

From Robert Baty

The Holms, through their sovcit authority Brady Byrum, came up with a 25-page letter that they sent around which includes the “affidavit” form.
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Didn’t work for them there either.
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See:
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http://kehvrlb.com/brady-byrums-no-longer-secret-baby-holm-billion-letter
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No, I don’t think the writ of habeas corpus works in child custody cases.
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Me and my people have discussed that.
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The Holms tried it in federal court in December of 2016, shortly after I started following their case. Dismissed after about 2 weeks.
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More about that later, maybe.
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Is that the Cyndi Abcug case.
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I am in Colorado.
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My prophecy is her writ of habeas corpus will not get her what she wants.

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From Megan Fox

Yes, abcug case. her attorney had precedent for it. I can look it up.

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The county response to it is pathetic.

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She has a jury trial scheduled for October if the writ does not work. But it’s a damn shame if it doesn’t because they took him without cause, without a summons, no due process, no exigent circumstances…nothing.

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I don’t doubt you that they will rule against the writ but I don’t think on its merit because their response is truly pathetic. They don’t deny what they did.

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They say they didn’t do it but provide no evidence that a proper summons was given etc.

From Robert Baty

Here’s a screenshot (snipped) of some articles I have posted regarding the Montana situation I got myself into when the Sammy Dalke case broke and my people were discussing it.

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Abcug’s attorney may be able to cite a case where a writ of habeas corpus did something in a child custody case, but, I propose, it will be old news and not a precedent for what Abcug wants to accomplish with it.

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One my legal experts recently opined in that context, that States had moved away from allowing it and the federal claims are without merit.

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Didn’t work for the Holms.

Didn’t work for Willes.

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I think the “precedents” are with me.

Time will tell.

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From Megan Fox

According to attorney, he says the writ of habeas corpus is strong in Colorado but neither of us really have our hopes up and believe this will come down to trial. She never got her 72 hour hearing either. And they kept her from visitation for over 60 days. It’s really sad and horrible.

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But I’ve been keeping her away from the affadavit people.

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And I’m trying to figure out what they are doing. Are they charging money for this stuff?

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I have to disagree with you about Jim (James White) and Mike (Michael Volpe). Although I’m not connected to Jim’s broadcast, I think he’s sincere. I did tell him I thought the Holm case was a loser.

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Michael Volpe I have known for years. I don’t really believe he has intentionally mislead anyone.

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Thanks for your links. I’ll look them over. Appreciate the time.

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From Robert Baty

I guess if you are right we will know soon what the status of writs of habeas corpus in child custody, civil cases is in Colorado.
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I am in Colorado, for what it’s worth.
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I have trouble accepting the “sincerity” claims for people like James White when they set themselves to evade open, honest discussion such as I offered.
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He seems quite comfortable and satisfied in his echo chamber world and can’t be bothered with his blunders being pointed out to him.
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I’m sure they are all really nice guys outside of their hobbies.
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Michael Volpe, apparently, like James and others, doesn’t like his blunders, his public blunders being pointed out to him.
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“We” spent a lot time on the Raymond Schwab case because of its connections to the Holm case.
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Not knowing how much you dug into my work, you’ll have to let me know if I am referencing stuff you are already familiar with.
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This is a link, for instance, to my Holm group:
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https://www.facebook.com/groups/1425578747477117/about/

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From Megan Fox

I had a lot of questions about the Holm case. It’s a loser in my opinion. Too many mistakes by the parents and too many questions. I’m not sure if that means they should never have a relationship with their kid though. The state, in my opinion, has overstepped in many of these cases. Thanks for your time. I appreciate it.

From Robert Baty

If you run across James White, you might let him know I am amenable in doing a live broadcast on his show and discussing the Holm case he has been promoting lately, and maybe other subjects of mutual interest.
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Here’s a YouTube interview I had on the Holm case with Joseph Edward:
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ABH–Okxh0&t=2989s

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From Megan Fox

Thanks. I will tell him.

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I’m going to listen to that now. I do think that case raises a ton of questions. But I also wonder why parents have to jump through so many hoops by the county when they haven’t been shown to be guilty of anything. There’s a new one popped up today, parent accused of drugs…said baby was positive…after the baby dies in foster care the parent gets the medical records and finds out the drug tests were negative. Why should that falsely accused parent do what the county wants? It’s a tough one.

From Robert Baty

There are literally thousands of cases and they are all, in my observation, quite fact and law sensitive and few there are willing and able to dig into the details.

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Me and my people have dug into some of them and our experience is that they ain’t necessarily what you hear about them.

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The Holm case, for example, my premier case study.

The Schwab case.

The Lydia A. Hubbell case.

The Dalke case.

The Willes case.

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(Just some of the examples me and my people have considered.)

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Most cases, due to privacy issues and other reasons, make it difficult to obtain appropriate information for evaluation.

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From Megan Fox

Listening to your interview…is homelessness a legitimate reason to take a child though? In Illinois, it’s not legal to remove a child because parents are homeless. (or at least it wasn’t several years ago when I was looking into it). Poverty isn’t a crime. Living in a tent isn’t a crime. And it’s not necessarily proof that a child will be neglected, is it?

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I agree that the Holms’ are odd. There is no doubt. But aren’t odd people allowed to pursue their liberty and happiness?

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Without interference by the state?

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I think the state has too much power over us. Who am I to say how the Holms’ should live their lives?

From Robert Baty

Seems like they took the baby because they were living in a tent for one, they didn’t want the pharmaceuticals in the hospital (which plenty of people say no to) and they didn’t want a birth certificate.

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None of those things are crimes.

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I don’t personally subscribe to that way of life but why should we be the arbiters of someone else’s pursuit of happiness?

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Mental illness is also not a crime.

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So if the parents have mental illness, that’s an actual protected condition under ADA.

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They should most likely qualify for help, but should the state take their child? It’s tricky for me because I always side with liberty over state control.

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From Robert Baty

There is a difference, as I have noted numerous times now, between disagreeing with the law and misrepresenting the law.

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Baby Holm was taken, justifiably so, based on the facts and the law.

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If you want to challenge that and discuss it in appropriate detail, I would recommend you join the “Understanding The Baby Holm Case” group and engage that discussion.

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That’s what that group is for, in part.

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My outstanding challenge on that is briefly represented in the following proposition:

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The State of Alabama was factually and legally

justified in taking custody of Baby Holm in October

of 2016, in retaining custody, terminating parental

rights, and in adopting the child into a permanent home.

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From Megan Fox

We can’t fix the world. We should err on the side of personal liberty, in my opinion.

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I think it’s scary when the state starts deciding who is mentally stable and who isn’t…i mean, when does that stop? If they want something from you they can just declare you unfit and take it if that’s the standard.

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From Robert Baty

One of the things my people have often mentioned is what apparently is this misguided notion that in such cases, it’s all about the parents alleged rights. It’s about the rights of the child and protecting the child.

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Isn’t it just as scary, or more so, to think that your neighbor might sacrifice its newborn child in its backyard, to some perceived deity; claiming it’s God’s will and “I got my parental rights”; while the cops, the State, says, “that’s right, we got no jurisdiction there”.

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From Megan Fox

Obviously there has to be a balance but what was the danger to Baby Holm?

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I believe the state should have a tougher burden to prove there will be harm or there is harm to the child.

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We are talking about terminating parents rights which the supreme court says is akin to the death penalty.

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There should be a much higher standard of proof to do that to a family.

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Preponderance of evidence isn’t good enough.

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From Robert Baty

The Holms were without visible means of support or means to care for a child and wanted to simply disappear into the night with a newborn child.

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Like I said, we could go into more detail if you wanted to join my Baby Holm group and advance that discussion.

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The facts and the law justified the removal of Baby Holm.

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In my experience, it’s been hard to find a Holm supporter who would even agree on the applicable law, like it or not, and the relevant facts.

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From Megan Fox

So they were justified to take the baby because the parents were “transient?” That doesn’t pass the sniff test to me. There’s no way to say they meant to harm the baby. Where is the evidence?

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From Robert Baty

The Holms, it can be argued, sacrificed their child to the State, choosing their beligerent, sovcit silliness and “odd ideas” over their child.

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In essence, they abandoned their child and the termination and adoption reasonably and logically followed.

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They got what they wanted, what they bargained for.

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From Megan Fox

I agree that they made mistakes. But lets say they were innocent. Isn’t it justified to respond in a hostile way when you’re being falsely accused? Maybe it’s not the smartest reaction but it seems reasonable to me.

From Robert Baty

I don’t know what the Holms meant for their baby. We likely will never know. For all we know, they were the traffickers and were thwarted in their attempt to have a baby, off the books, and sold to a waiting buyer.

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From Megan Fox

I agree with you that they did stupid STUPID things. I just don’t think that means they are bad parents.

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You’re right, we can’t know that either. But that’s speculation too. Parents have a right to be with their biological children. The Ninth Circuit said “the government’s interest in the welfare of children embraces not only protecting children from physical abuse, but also protecting children’s interest in the privacy and dignity of their homes and in the lawfully exercised authority of their parents.”

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If there’s no proof that parents are dangerous to their children, even if they are wacky like the Holms, should their children be taken on the chance that they MIGHT hurt them?

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From Robert Baty

Well, subjectively speaking, they have convinced many they would not have been very good parents.

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You did know that Mr. Holm sacrificed his first son as well.

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That son’s mother recently joined my Baby Holm group.

Maybe you should join and talk to her a bit.

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Mr. Holm’s aunt is also in the group if you want to talk to her.

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Mrs. Holms relatives are also in the group.

Maybe you should talk to them.

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From Megan Fox

I think that’s an overreach.

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No, I didn’t know that about the other son.

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I’m still listening to your interview.

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A warrant is not required to take a child?

I think that can be fought in court, no?

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Shawn MacMillan won millions for his client in CA for that very thing…taking a child with a general outdated warrant with no exigent circumstances.

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That case made the hospital change its policy they lost so much money.

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I think you are arguing how you think the law ought to be which is different than what it is. .

That’s part of the problem in such cases.

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For instance, if you don’t like kids being taken without a warrant (which is constitutional by the way), then why haven’t you or James White, someone, anyone, impressed upon Rodney Garcia to introduce legislation that would repeal Montana law that allows for it? .

There’s good reason for the law, despite all the whining about it from “your side”.

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That’s been a point I have tried to stress when dealing with my opposition.

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From Megan Fox

I’m not aware of a law that allows them to take a child without a warrant unless there’s exigent circumstances that mean the child’s life is in danger.

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What am I missing?

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From Robert Baty

Bwahahaha!

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Yeah, someone tried to trumpet Shawn McMillan in the Baby Holm group.

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I have corresponded with Shawn McMillan, and he made it clear he wasn’t about to touch the Baby Holm case and didn’t have the time or interest in trying to figure out Alabama law on the matter.

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From Megan Fox

Well he’s in CA so I understand that but he has won those cases. That’s public record.

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I’ve watched all the depositions.

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Okay, this stuff about standing in the back of the courtroom is ridiculous. but again, that’s an odd person, not really an indicator that he is a bad parent.

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From Robert Baty

You are missing looking up the Alabama law on the matter, which is available on line and in my group, and in my articles on the kehvrlb.com website.

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Well, if there was interest and time, we might look up one of Shawn’s cases that you are talking about.

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They are probably distinguishable from what we are talking about. Most states, in my experience, have a law that allows the taking of children without a warrant.

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Due process allows for challenging such removals.

From Megan Fox

He could be…I’m not saying that he’s not.

This case is a hard one.

No doubt.

That’s why I’ve never taken it on.

Too many questions.

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That’s what I mean…due process allows a challenge to taking a child without a warrant. I would think that any law that takes away your 4th amendment due process is not a lawful law.

From Robert Baty

Well, if you stand in the back of courtroom, sovcit style, and reject the jurisdiction of the State, it is not likely you are going to comply with reasonable requests regarding the protection of the child.

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And the Holms made it clear that compliance was not something they were going to do. .

Easy peasy, they dumped the kid; #2 for Mr. Holm.

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From Megan Fox

Again, I’m not arguing the Holm case with you. You have done a lot more research into it than I have and I’ve had my doubts about it from the beginning. My concern with it has always been that it seemed the state just disliked these two because of their attitude and not because there was evidence that the child was in danger.

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And even with what they’ve done…and admittedly it’s stupid as hell…does that require the punishment of termination of parental rights that is like the death penalty for parents and children? Seems like overkill to me.

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Hurlman v. Rice The mere possibility or risk of harm does not constitute an emergency or exigent circumstance that would justify a forced warrant-less entry and a warrant-less seizure of a child.

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Quilloin v. Walcott A due process violation occurs when a state required breakup of a natural family is founded solely on the best interests analysis that is not supported by the requisite proof of parental unfitness.

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What proof did the government have that they were unfit parents? Not kooks…but unfit parents.

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From Robert Baty

My legal expert in my Baby Holm group has proposed that the law regarding removal of children without a warrant, in Alabama, as in other states, is decades old and quite likely able to withstand any constitutional challenge.

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It’s not so much punishment for the parents as protection for the child.

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We have different views of such things.

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Another thing I have noticed (ala James White), is that your side doesn’t want to dig into the details of individual cases. They just want to promote a cause, a bigger more important cause if you ask them, and they don’t have time to actually consider they may have got their star witnesses’ cases all wrong.

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The Holms’ case was the #1 case of 2016 for the Medical Kidnap people, until I and my people started reporting on it.

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Similarly, Raymond Schwab was headed towards a termination action until “we” started reporting and showing him what was wrong with the course he had taken for 2 and a half years.

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From Megan Fox

I’m not familiar with the Schwab case.

I am interested in the details.

I can’t speak for Jim (James White).

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From Robert Baty

Again, if you want to get into details and try to use some cases to support a position contrary to mine, I recommend you join my Baby Holm group and engage there.

From Megan Fox

I did join.

From Robert Baty

Well, James White had Scwhab on his big 12 hour marathon; promoting the False Schwab Narrative. I’ve got lots of articles on all of that, as well as reams of discussion on FaceBook.

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Matthew Simechak who approved your membership is the groups resident legal expert; a lawyer in Alabama does specialty work, in part, as a Guardian ad Litem.

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From Megan Fox

I didn’t get approved yet but when I do I’ll check it out.

From Robert Baty

My record shows you are “in”, and I posted a welcome message at:
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https://www.facebook.com/groups/1425578747477117/permalink/2651349798233333/
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Maybe it will take a few minutes for all the connections to be completed.

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From Megan Fox

Weird, I still can’t see it.

It’s still showing me no in the group.

I’ve tried refreshing.

Maybe it just takes a while.

From Robert Baty

Oops!

My bad.

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Matthew declined your application.

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I posted a note about it and suggested you be admitted.

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Try applying again and I’ll try to get you approved myself.

From Megan Fox

Why do we have to prove to the state that we are able to care for our children?

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That strikes me as a bad idea.

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The state is not a good judge of anything.

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I joined again.

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I think we are the supervisors of the state, not the other way around.

From Robert Baty

Because the State has an interest in the welfare of the child at at times, as provided by law, the State might question a parents willingness and ability to provide for the child’s reasonable care.

From Megan Fox

Don’t they govern with our permission?

Do you think the state has harmed children?

From Robert Baty

My people typically do not question that “it’s government, of course there is room for improvement”.

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What we have done, for the most part, however, is to point up the flaws in the reasoning and cases put forth by promoters in the anti-CPS movement.

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For the most part, it is wrong-headed. “Don’t they govern with our permission”.

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Yeah, that whole “we the people” gimmick from promoters who think they are “we the people”.

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They can’t get their way and they just whine whine whine while “we the people” do have a way to deal with such matters and it just ain’t “let James White tell us”.

From Megan Fox

Leaving James out of it, because he’s just a guy with an opinion and I think he’s sincere in wanting to help families struggling with CPS corruption…I’ve seen the corruption with my own eyes. I’ve seen falsified petitions. Depositions where they admit they have written false information that resulted in the removal of children. This isn’t a conspiracy…it happens to people. The courtrooms are sealed, the cases are sealed from the public for the “privacy of the child” and then the state puts that same child on a website up for adoption! face, name and everthing!

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Gag orders are illegal and against the 1st amendment and yet they do them…I’ve spoken to lawyers (good ones) about these gag orders…they all agree they’re illegal but there’s nothing you can do when you’re in the jurisdiction of the judge.

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Because he can throw you into jail.

From Robert Baty

I just used James as representative as to how so many wannabe advocates/activists talk when it comes to such things. James is not unique in his approach.

From Megan Fox

I’m not an advocate. I’m just a journalist and a parent and cps scares the shit out of me. I have reported on a few of these stories when I can see evidence that I believe passes muster.

From Robert Baty

As I said, they certainly have their problems, and there are ways to deal with it.
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But, as I propose, if you want to use the Baby Holm case to illustrate your concerns, or Schwabbie, or Willes, or…., you get the drift, you won’t be impressing me with the merits of any specific issues that need to be addressed.
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CPS exists for a good reason, as far as “we the people” are concerned, and it is funded, for better or worse (I am not versed on those details).
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So, let me know about Rodney Garcia’s legislation to repeal the law that allows the removal of children without a warrant (just one example).
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Rodney is just one example. You can pick any state and show me the legislation.
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That’s just one example of one small part of what “your side” is whining about, demonstrating to me that you don’t know the law (which varies somewhat from state to state).
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I don’t really consider myself a “journalist”; just an old man with a keyboard.
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Kent Hovind, my primary hobby, got me into the cases when his man Brady Byrum was announced as being the secret meddler in his case.
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Did you see this article about that?
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http://kehvrlb.com/kents-brady-byrum-meddling-in-baby-holm-case

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I don’t think we touched on the Lee Kenworthy case.

Have you considered it?

It’s been of special interest to me since Memorial Day 2018 when he had his infamous standoff, went to a mental ward, and the kids went to grandma.

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It was a “big story” for awhile. Lee recently filed a federal lawsuit against me and a few others.

From Megan Fox

I have not heard of this case.

From Robert Baty

Just quickly pulled one news report of the Memorial Day 2018 standoff event, if you are interested:
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https://newsmaven.io/pinacnews/cops-gone-rogue/n-j-man-live-streaming-standoff-with-cops-after-refusing-cps-welfare-check-3sMrGN9L9UK_ULakvwcYVg/

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Lee doesn’t like me much.

He claims the Lyndhurst Police murdered his wife.

I claim he killed his wife.

From Megan Fox

Did you have your own experience with CPS?

What motivates you to do this kind of research?

From Robert Baty

No, I never had any issues with CPS.

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As I indicated earlier, it was Kent Hovind’s man Brady Byrum that led me to get involved with the Holm case and the rest, they say, is history.

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I keep thinking my involvement will wane, but things keep happening to keep me engaged.

From Megan Fox

Well, thanks for the information. I appreciate your time. I have a lot to go over.

From Robert Baty

If you get the time and have the interest, I just found this and I think it illustrates and supports my claim for not giving James White the character of being “sincere” in what he does.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ufBJhYOWgI
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James might be a bigger tax cheat than Kent Hovind. He seems to be supporting those who are.
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I have an article dealing with their false legal narrative at:
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http://kehvrlb.com/show-me-the-law-ok-income-tax-101
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Are you with James and his guests on that subject?

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From Megan Fox

Good luck on your tiling. I apologize if i’ve falsely mischaracterized you. I certainly don’t want to do that. I just don’t understand why you spend so much time on focusing on people you disagree with. You spend far more time watching Jim’s show than I do. I’ve not seen half of what you have seen. I find that ignoring people I disagree or I find upsetting is better for my health. I just wonder what your goal is. To me, even if some of these parents are exaggerating or going about it wrong, I may not help them or cover their stories but I certainly wouldn’t dedicate any time to “exposing” them. For what? They’ve been through enough. Statistics don’t lie. 80% of CPS abuse investigations are unfounded according to health and human services. Are all of those children returned? Just today I saw a story about 800 CPS workers reprimanded for lying in court and falsifying documents. These are the cases that concern me. Not some parent who might be telling a story that isn’t 100% true online somewhere. The state is the one with the power, not the parent. I don’t go after the little guy. Never punch down.

From Robert Baty

If I haven’t lost you yet, in looking for something else I ran across this article from Jacquelyn Weaver about that interview I did with Joseph Edward on the Baby Holm case.
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It’s not very long and you might find it of some interest.
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Jacquelyn Weaver is a member of the “Understanding The Baby Holm Case” group.
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https://trackingmeroz.wordpress.com/2018/01/27/fyi-the-joseph-edward-interview-with-robert-baty-on-the-baby-holm-case/

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From Robert Baty

I mentioned you in my “Kent Hovind’s Worst Nightmare” group and someone responded with a couple of references to your notoriety as a promoter of the young-earth creation-science theology, with links to 2 YouTube videos at:
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wvu-2MiibPs&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR1TFeaauApctH_XgUjS4NJra3pdA5WlHs4dcZCNeA3Uw0bvySdIbZ7TcOQ
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and
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdQsZ_46ios&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR23sH7Maj6uMyDyU7FfWn7-nAA4eMz-_V3yRTr_b_jW43TDcwyvW8WbtqQ
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Maybe you have outgrown that story.
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If not, you might have some passing interest in my Hovind group. If you want to join let me know and we’ll see what we can do.
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It was recently changed from “public” to “secret” and it’s stuck with that status for another 3 weeks or so.
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Maybe you are already familiar with it.
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In any case, I thought I would mention the latest developments.
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My Hovind group members have had a lot to say recently on the CPS issues which have become a topic of interest. It connects back to Hovind through Brady Byrum and the Holm case.

From Megan Fox

I’m not a young earth creationist. Those are lies told about a comedy video I did because I enjoyed tweaking atheist trolls. Anyone claiming I’m a YE creationist needs to actually watch what I’ve said. But this is a topic I’m way past and not interested in revisiting.

From Robert Baty

OK, I’ll let the group know.

From Megan Fox

Thanks. I appreciate it. I support everyone’s right to question “settled science” but I’ve never supported YE creationism myself. I did enjoy the creation museum though. Nice people, pretty place.

From Robert Baty

Just saw your August 12 article on Cyndie Abcug, but I didn’t notice any reference to the status of her highly touted habeas corpus claim.
.
Do you know what has become of that; if there has been a ruling by the Court?
.
Last I heard Cyndie was claiming the Court would rule within 15 days, but I don’t recall if it’s been 15 days or yet.
.
https://pjmedia.com/parenting/update-colorado-mom-says-son-reported-abuse-in-foster-care-and-cps-sent-him-back-for-more/

.

From Megan Fox

Judge has not ruled yet or called a hearing on it.
Lawyer trying to find out why.
The county has answered it.
.
Robert, I feel you are hostile to parents who are dealing with CPS and you have your reasons. But I do feel it’s unnecessary. Government agencies make mistakes. Currently, they’re making a big one in this case. The county has just informed the attorney that the child did say the word sphincter 4 times during the visit but they will not be investigating because they deny he said it hurt. No explanation for what they claim he said.
.
Just that the mother is lying and they don’t have to investigate.
I think they are wrong and breaking their own reporting laws.

From Robert Baty

I don’t recall if you have seen my article on Susan Spell, so here is the link.
.
She filed 2 federal habeas corpus claims and both were quickly dismissed.
.
http://kehvrlb.com/susan-spell-writs-of-habeas-corpus
.
I wouldn’t say I am “hostile”. I do have a different view as to how a concerned parent might get their child back if that is their primary interest as opposed to whining about the system and being a part of a movement.
.
If you are concerned with “hostility”, you should be counseling Abcug and White and Willes and………… Well, you get the idea.

From Megan Fox

I agree with you that being a part of a movement isn’t the way to go while fighting.
But I don’t think it’s an indicator of who is sincere or not.
.
I think these are desperate parents who are at their wits end because no one is there to help them or oversee these agencies.
.
The agency has all the power.
.

Cyndie’s habeas corpus is still in limbo and the attorney doesn’t know why.

If it is dismissed I’ll let you know.

I’m also interested in what works and what doesn’t

.
I don’t think it was a bad idea to try.
.
But i’m not a lawyer so I have no professional opinion on it and am looking forward to some ruling.

From Robert Baty

Well, I welcome the Abcug record regarding habeas corpus.

I thought Abcug’s claim of a 15 day turn-around was a little overly positive.

Thanks for keeping me in the loop on that.

From Megan Fox

I think she is being as positive as she can be or she’ll go crazy.

I also doubted there would be any ruling in that time frame.

.

I think what she was saying was that her attorney was giving it 30 days and there were 15 days left until that was up. After the 30 days he was going to start inquiring about the ruling.

From Robert Baty

I just happened across Raymond Schwab’s promotion of your recent radio show on the 16th where you start off talking about the Abcug case.
.
I guess I haven’t had much influence on you.
.
I also just happened to have struck up a conversation with Andrea Wood out in California.
.
Are you familiar with her big anti-CPS activities and lawsuits and custody battles and all?
.
I don’t know where our conversation might wind up, and I didn’t run across references to you on his activism page.
.
Just thought I would ask.
.
I only listened to a few minutes of your radio show.
.
https://800wvhu.iheart.com/featured/the-tom-roten-morning-show/content/2019-08-16-megan-fox-cps-corruption-rooted-in-greed-sex-trafficking/

.

From Megan Fox

I just talk about what I know.

No I have not heard of Andrea Wood.

.

My issue is that CPS in this case and in others I’ve investigated has violated due process. .

Not only that but they are currently violating their own policy of investigating any suspected abuse.

From Robert Baty

You might be interested in Andrea case if you have any more time to spare in adding to your case inventory. It’s kinda interesting.

.

Apparently, she’s got lots of money, or her deceased husband (father of the kids) had lots of money that survived him. He died before he could remarry (at age 37 or so). They got divorced before he died and he died before remarrying. One of the kids was IVF 3 years after he died.

.

Not sure exactly why the kids were taken.

.

Anyway, take it or leave; just thought I would mention it.

.

She also knows Susan Spell who also recently filed similar suits out in California. They both value their cases at a little under one billion-with-a-b dollars.

From Megan Fox

I just looked her up.

Sounds interesting.

From Robert Baty

Yeah, I just this morning found a couple of more recently filed federal cases from Andrea Wood and one of them includes the matter reflected in the screenshot below.

.

Seems like she may be a candidate for “vexatious litigant” from what I see; at least there are legitimate reasons to present that issue for the Court’s consideration.

From Megan Fox

If what she alleges is true (and I’ve seen judges do this…the Abcug case for example holding secret hearings) then she should sue.
.
Abcug’s lawyer sent a letter to the chief judge asking why his motions have been sitting for over 60 days. The next day he had answers from the county on two of them. They are dragging their feet and denying her her day in court.
.
All she wants is an evidentiary hearing for a judge to look at the evidence and she can’t get it.
.
And all a judge has to do to deny a person their due process is do nothing.
.
Which is exactly what has happened in this case.
.
Delay of judgement.

From Robert Baty

I ran across a reference to one of your old articles a few minutes ago and posted the following:
.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/kenthovindsworstnightmare/permalink/1304491569719969/

From Robert Baty

So, today in a live broadcast with Cyndie, James White claims the habeas corpus was denied.
.
No particular details; certainly no credit to me for telling them the claim would be found to be frivolous.
.
You happen to have a copy of that decision to share?
.
Link to broadcast:
.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv1Rc7sghkQ
.
James’ comment about the habeas corpus is stated shortly after Cyndie comes on. If it was reported before, I seem to have missed it.

From Megan Fox

I don’t have that. As far as I know it was dismissed without explanation.
.

I find it strange there was no hearing on it. Her attorney is a criminal attorney who used to work for the AG. He wouldn’t file frivolous paperwork.

From Robert Baty

Wouldn’t he?

.

There should be a document recording the dismissal, and I would suspect it says something about why it was dismissed, though “frivolous” may not have actually been used.

.

I can see her lawyer filing the document to appease Cyndie who was told of the gimmick by others “in the movement”.

.

I could be wrong, but I doubt her lawyer came up with the idea on his own.

.

We may never get to the bottom of all of that.

Why would Cyndie withhold the dismissal order?

Maybe it will appear.

Maybe not.

From Megan Fox

I’m sure Cyndie did not recommend it.
It was his idea.
At the time she did not know any “advocates”
.
I haven’t asked her for the dismissal order so I wouldn’t say she has withheld it.
I wasn’t expecting a ruling in her favor.

From Robert Baty

After all, Cyndie did pay her lawyer to do her bidding, right?

.

If you come up with any evidence that her lawyer came up with the habeas corpus notion on his own, let me know, please.

.

For all the fuss about it, James White and Cyndie should have posted the dismissal document in one of the recent broadcasts; if you ask me.

.

Yeah, I would say it is being “withheld”.

From Megan Fox

Yes he’s paid.

But I’m certain it was his idea.

.

I was in contact with her at the time and she had no idea what it was he was filing until it was written.

.

I was there for that.

That was his strategy.

From Robert Baty

I wouldn’t know, but would be nice to find out the real details on how he came up with that, if that was on his own.

.

Maybe he likes to build fees as long as the client is willing to pay.

.

If he is half the lawyer you think he is, he surely would have advised her something like,

.

“we might try this, others like you have,

but it aint’ going to work in my opinion”.

.

He could have a mal-practice issue if he pushed it on her and charged her for it when he should have known it was “frivolous”.

From Megan Fox

That would be depressing.

He’s filed other motions by the judge has just sat on them.

She rules on the county’s motions by ignores his.

From Robert Baty

The judge may be “onto him” and his antics; no big hurry to deal with “frivolous” filings in such cases.

From Megan Fox

He’s a criminal attorney.

He’s never been in juvenile court

From Robert Baty

Maybe he has a reputation; criminal lawyers are known maybe more for their paid theatrics than the merits of the causes of guilty defendants.

From Megan Fox

The last word I would use for him is theatrical.
In my opinion he’s way less aggressive than she needs.
.
But I’m not an attorney and I usually stay quiet about those things.
He must have some strategy.

From Robert Baty

Yeah, I alluded to it earlier; fee building.

Or, has Cyndie dismissed him?

She was begging for references for lawyers to file a federal case for her.

.

Apparently she thinks highly of a criminal defense attorney for her child custody matter but not highly enough to ask him to file a federal suit for her (assuming he might be admitted to the federal bar or could easily enough get admitted or try a pro hac vice appearance).

From Megan Fox

I don’t know. I have been told that federal court would be a better option by a few lawyers I know but who knows.

.

Her current attorney seems rather slow to file anything in a higher court but I don’t know what his reasoning is.

From Robert Baty

The federal courts typically are not going to intervene in child custody decisions by States. .

She may be thinking about filing a civil rights case (i.e., asking for money damages like Spell and Wood in my recent coverage of their multi-million dollar cases out of California). .

And of course, going federal with such claims pretty much guarantees a long, long battle in court, if you can keep it alive after all the dismissal motions (which might, in themselves, take a year or so to resolve).

From Megan Fox

Well I don’t know what she should do to get her son back. They haven’t accused her of anything beyond being overprotective. Her evidence isn’t allowed in front of a judge. They keep having secret hearings and sitting on her motions. How is a parent supposed to fight this? No idea.

From Robert Baty

Well, I know the typical story from her side, a version of which you have recited.

.

My experience has been that such stories about what is going on is not quite accurate. I don’t know what she might do to get her child back. The State should be able and may very well have told her what she might do, and it seems she has not been compelled to respond positively to such suggestions.

.

I am not that deep into her case. As I recall, she had a dysfunctional marriage and some kids and has been moving all over the place trying to posture herself to try and get what she wants.

.

Don’t expect me to conclusively sort it all out. I’m just a casual observer and from my casual observations she is simply part of a larger misguided “movement” that cares more about the “movement” and getting on YouTube and whining than working with CPS to get her child back.

.

Of course, in some cases, getting the child back is not going to be a realistic option.

So, I watch and wait.

.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

From Megan Fox

That’s not why she moved. I published the letter from her son’s doctor telling her to go to Dr. Collins in CO for her son. Then she got permission from the judge to temporarily relocate so he could be seen.
.
Her evidence is good. She’s one of a very few who has evidence from doctors and professionals that what she says is true is actually true according to her son’s doctors.
.
I compared the county’s petition to her evidence and it refuted all of it.
I don’t know why the county is lying about this child and this case but they are.
They gave three different explanations for her son’s black eye obtained in foster care…in writing.
.
They refused to report what sounds like abuse in the foster care home.
.
Cyndie wasn’t accused of anything that horrific (sex abuse) and they took him from her. But yet they do nothing when the child says his butt hurts in foster care?
.
That’s negligent
.
They also came up with several different explanations for that one in writing.

From Robert Baty

I am somewhat familiar with her side of things regarding that, and it is similar to what is commonly heard.

.

The parents think things are just so horrible for kids that are removed, and yet, instead of working with CPS to have the kids returned, they head to YouTube to whine and join up with the “movement”.

.

I’ve heard, on the other hand, numerous stories about how quickly one can resolve issues with CPS when the parent does NOT take an adversarial position.

From Megan Fox

She didn’t head directly to YouTube. ‘
She did try and get him back.
Her court appointed attorney was awful and refused to do anything proactive.
She suffered with that for weeks before trying to get help.
The county at the time didn’t offer her any way to get him back.
.
They just recently provided their plan about a week ago that she’s supposed to do which, if innocent of the charges which I’m fairly certain she is, would be absurd. She isn’t an abuser. .
Why would she agree to take child abuse classes and admit to something she hasn’t done?
.
If you were accused of something falsely would you sign a confession of guilt to get your life back? Or would you fight it?

From Robert Baty

Like I said, “been there, done that”. Maybe that will all shake out in the end, publicly. Maybe not. For now, it all sounds familiar and not necessarily an accurate reflection of relevant details.

From Megan Fox

You keep saying you aren’t familiar with the details but you’ve heard it before.
.
Yet I am familiar with the details and I’m telling you, the county has acted improperly many times in this case. And the evidence on her side is pretty overwhelming…evidence that was never allowed in any hearing. They are also fighting discovery. Now why would they do that?
.
If Cindy is such a dangerous parent and her son was in danger of dying in her care as they claimed, then why did they leave her daughter with her?
.
There are so many questions.

From Robert Baty

I get what you claim as your testimony, but all I have is your testimony.

.

I don’t have the documented details and, due to privacy rules, I don’t have the State’s side of things as to relevant specifics.

.

If what you say is correct and the removal and retention is unjustified, I still have confidence that a public lawyer or private lawyer could easily resolve the matter without all the theatrics that typically accompanies cases like Cyndie’s.

.

Not having answers doesn’t mean I have to accept your testimony or Cyndie’s.

From Megan Fox

None of us will ever get the states side due to privacy issues but yet you believe the state very willingly without any evidence.
.
But I do know she was entitled to a summons and didn’t get one. She was hauled into court to remove her son on an email.
.
That’s unheard of and you know that.
.
Her attorney hasn’t done any theatrics that I know of. He’s a very sober guy and slow to act.
.
If you think anything is “easy” in juvenile court then you don’t know many attorneys who work there. I have several as friends and family members and it’s not easy at all.
.
I just had lunch with a local attorney today who works in family court who was telling me the lengths CPS will go to to not be seen as wrong. It’s staggering.

From Robert Baty

You wrote, in part:

.

– “I do know she was entitled

– to a summons and didn’t get

– one. She was hauled into court

– to remove her son on an email.

– That’s unheard of and you know

– that.”

.

I’m not sure what you are talking about there or if you recitation is accurate. Folks like James White and Cyndie Abcug are often heard whining about kids taken without warrants as if such is not provided for by law.

.

Depending on the circumstances, with or without warrant is provided for by law.

.

So, I don’t know what you are talking about with reference to a “summons”. If you want to explore that in more detail, I might be able to oblige. For now, you don’t give me enough to go on in evaluating your claim.

From Megan Fox

When you are called to court, the party hauling you there must serve you with notice of said court date.
.
She was not given a summons.
She was told she was going to a “meeting” about their services.
That wasn’t true.
It was a hearing to remove her son.
She had no lawyer.
She was appointed one ten minutes before the hearing.
.
I’m not talking about a warrant.
I’m talking about a summons to court.
.
Then after she was there they made her sign a waiver of summons!
She didn’t even know she had a right to a summons!

From Robert Baty

If she signed a waiver, she signed a waiver.

.

As they say, “ignorance of the law” is no defense (sometimes).

.

I am thinking they didn’t “make her” sign the waiver, and your characterization, if that is the case, is a further indication of the propriety of my analysis.

.

Who had physical custody of her son at that time?

Was it really a hearing to remove the son from her physical custody?

Really?

That doesn’t sound quite right to me.

From Megan Fox

She had custody at the time.
They went from the courthouse to her house and took him.
What are you suggesting the hearing was for?

From Robert Baty

So, the son was not there, but at home. The court ruled the State should take custody and they went to her house and took custody.

.

If she hadn’t signed the waiver they would have had to issue her a summons and maybe reschedule the proceeding.

.

From what I know, Cyndie had a lot of issues regarding custody over the years.

.

Was this the first custody matter where CPS was involved?  I was thinking she had a lot of fussing with the father about custody and all, but, like I said, I am only a casual observer. .

What compelled the Court to order State custody at that time, independent of your quibble over the summons issue.

From Megan Fox

Her son’s father died.
There was no dispute over custody of him.
She was involved in a custody dispute with the daughter’s father.
But that was before the move and was settled before the move in her favor.
.
The county lied and said his life was in danger and provided no proof and she wasn’t allowed to give any evidence nor did she have any with her not knowing what this hearing was for.
.
The original order was only for two weeks.
.
The county simply ignored that and kept him.
.
She’s never had an evidentiary hearing.
Never a 72 hour fact finding hearing.
.
They hid the file, said it was lost, gave her the wrong number, claimed her drug test was positive when the one she took was negative and then they never brought that up again and won’t give that alleged positive test to her attorney.
.
There’s so much
.
Maybe you’re right and her attorney is no good.
Who knows.
But this story is the stuff of nightmares.

From Robert Baty

That’s the key, “there is so much” and such cases are fact and law sensitive.

.

The story may be the stuff of nightmares, but not so much from the State’s perspective, which I don’t have.

.

She may have had a lawyer that did the best that could be done under the circumstances and it just isn’t what you make it out to be.

.

I will try to content myself with casually trying to keep up with the public notoriety and see where it goes.

.

Maybe I’ll get back to you later if something else catches my attention and is relevant to what we have discussed.

.

For now, I would just note again that, from what I know, Cyndie’s fishing around for a lawyer to file a federal case, even if she finds one or follows others who have gone pro se, isn’t going to affect the custody issue because the federal court is not going to interfere with that.

From Megan Fox

So what do you suggest that parents in her situation do to get their kids back?

From Robert Baty

I’m not sure what her situation is, and I suspect it is not such as she promotes on YouTube; the main problem, in my speculation, as to why she hasn’t gotten on track and gotten her child back being her adversarial approach.

.

I don’t recall if her lawyer also advertises having a family law specialty or not.

I was thinking maybe he did.

.

If he does not have any special family law expertise, I would recommend, if she’s going to hire a private lawyer, she get one that will help her work with the State to get the child back instead of spend time in adversarial combat that might guarantee, if it happens at all, it will be much later and not sooner.

.

Even a public lawyer might at least be competent enough to accomplish that.

From Megan Fox

Her first public lawyer was useless. I witnessed that disaster.
.
The adversarial players in this have been the county. They have never done anything to keep her child with her as they are required to by law…no reasonable efforts. their first action was to take him
.
That’s not reasonable efforts to keep him in the home. they’ve also not made any reasonable efforts to return him. They’ve kept her from visitation. She’s only had three visits or 4 in 105 days.
That’s unreasonable too.
.
If she is “adversarial” it’s because they’ve been attacking her from the beginning.
they’ve refused to speak to her grown sons who have tried to contact them. they’ve denied sibling visitation for them…it’s just crazy. They could have placed him with either son in kinship as they are adults.
.
But they never did that or even spoke to them.
.
So unless you think that her two grown sons are lying for her as well…and they also told me that their brother is ill and that their mother has NEVER abused any of them…then I don’t know what to tell you
.
You would think that grown men who were abused would tell a third party the truth if their mother was some kind of danger to their little brother. They’re both college grads with good jobs.

From Robert Baty

Are they aware of the sons’ situation and alleged interest in having kinship placement?

.

I am thinking they are both a long way off, in other states, and I hear it’s difficult to work out the logistics in making such placement work; even more so with a disabled child such as Cyndie’s son.

.

I am also thinking that neither son is really likely to be able to handle the workload, but that’s just speculation on my part.

.

I have no idea how much relevant information the 2 adult sons would have regarding the younger son in question and the custody issue.

From Megan Fox

They lived with him when his medical issues presented.
.
The county claims the son’s haven’t contacted them.
The son’s claim otherwise.

From Robert Baty

In the Holm case, the State (I use interchangeably for the local/county) reportedly contacted the relatives referenced by the Holms.

.

In that case, none of the relatives were willing to take the child.

.

So, have the sons got documentation of their contact with the State and any response they have gotten. Another one of those troublesome factual issues that may or may not be reported accurately.

From Megan Fox

Yes they both wrote.
.
No response and county denies any contact.
.
If she did what they claim she did which is “exaggerate” his medical condition then why must he be removed? Can’t they monitor his doctors visits?
.
All they’ve accused her of is being an “inaccurate historian”.
.
So a mother babies a child who has developmental delays that are recorded and that’s enough to remove him?
.
She never doctor shopped. He had one specialist in Florida and one in Colorado at the request of the Florida doctor.
.
She did what the doctors told her to do.
If she had refused they could say neglect!
He had no surgeries.
He was on one medication that he was wearing off.
Weaning.
.
There was no reason to take this child.
Dr Collins wrote in a letter I published that CPS never asked her opinion.

From Robert Baty

That the sort of thing that is convenient for the anti-CPS people.

3rd party observers have no way to tell.

.

So they wrote, regular snail mail, no return receipt, no copy of the letter (at least that you have sent me), and claim they were ignored.

.

So, if the county denied contact, and has the contact information, what does the county say it is doing about that matter now?

.

Asking questions I can’t answer doesn’t really promote Cyndie’s cause/claims.

It’s just a gimmick, often, to exploit the privacy that necessarily surrounds such cases.

From Megan Fox

I published one of the son’s letters.

.

I feel like you haven’t read about this case at all.

 

From Robert Baty

Well, we have different interests as should be self-evident from our correspondence.

.

So, you published one of the son’s letters and who knows what the county did with it if it got it and what it might be doing now, if anything, to affect a kinship placement option.

.

Also, it seems, for all the ins and outs, it is fairly early in the process, and such cases take time to resolve if not quickly resolved on the front end.

.

I did say I was a casual observer.

I have other interests that take up more of my time.

.

From a public relations standpoint, that is just a matter you and Cyndie and others have to consider; though I understand Cyndie and others think the information superhighway is one way; their way. It’s not.

.

The folks “out here” don’t have to believe anything or much of anything Cyndie and her apologists have to say as far as promoting the anti-CPS agenda.

.

I was browsing around looking for your published letter to CPS from Cyndie’s son.

I couldn’t find it.

Have you got a link to where you have that published?

From Megan Fox

Abcug’s oldest son Jake, who is twenty-six, told PJM that no one from DHS in Colorado ever contacted him to ask about his mother’s treatment of Michael.

.

“You’re the first person who called

me, and I was there,”

.

he said.

.

“He’s the sickest child I know. He goes unconscious

from seizures since he was younger than one.”

.

Jake defends his mother absolutely.

.

“She didn’t want to go to Colorado.

She didn’t want to leave me.

She followed the doctor’s orders and left a good paying job.

She uprooted her life to do what is best for him,”

.

he said.

.

Jake and his family are desperate to know what is happening to Michael in DHS custody. .

“He was getting therapy three times a week.

Are they caring for him?

We still haven’t gotten a diagnosis and in order

to get it, we listen to his doctors. If she didn’t

follow their advice, she’d be charged with neglect!”.

.

Here’s one part of the interview I did.

.

Here’s an excerpt from the other son’s letter Another outrageous and debunked claim DHS made in their faulty petition to remove Michael was that Abcug had subjected her other son, Jeremy, now an adult, to chemotherapy claiming,

.

“She represents her older son Jeremy had

stomach cancer and was receiving chemotherapy.”

.

This claim is refuted by Jeremy in a letter he wrote on May 20, 2019.

“These allegations against Cynthia are absolutely

ridiculous. I’ve seen Michael’s decline in health over

the years, and the notion that she was poisoning

Michael is unbelievable. She has never claimed that

I had stomach cancer (in fact, she was the only one

in the family to take steps to get me treated when I

was suffering from h. Pylori bacteria.)…I hope Michael

is rightfully returned to his family as soon as possible

before his situation deteriorates even more so, and

that more care is taken in these types of situations in the future.”

.

PJM reached out to Jeremy. “I don’t believe they looked at any of his records. They have taken no care in this case,” he said.

From Robert Baty

I think I saw that stuff in one of your articles.

.

So, no link to the alleged letter; at least not one handy?

.

Also, I got this on Jay C. Fisher; Cyndie’s private lawyer.

.

Don’t know if I sent it to you before, but I did post it in my Hovind group. Not such a “hot-shot” lawyer; seems to me. The marijuana connection is interesting. Seems a number of anti-CPS folks (Abcug, Schwab, Fox) like marijuana lawyers and there would seem to be some connection there as to why such lawyers may be chosen over more legitimate qualifications.

.

https://lawenforcementactionpartnership.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Jay-Fisher2017.pdf

 

From Megan Fox

I have the letter. I’m not at liberty to share it with you, nor do I think that’s a good idea considering how hostile you appear to be toward parents fighting with CPS.

.

I have seen his qualifications. He used to work in the AG’s office so they thought he was qualified.

From Robert Baty

It’s your call.

You said you published it.

Did you get that wrong?

.

I’m not hostile, just cynical based on my personal experience in dealing with these cases and the people that promote them.

From Megan Fox

Robert, I don’t see why you have such interest in this case as a “casual observer” and frankly, I don’t have the time to go over every detail of this case with you. The information is out there if you want to find it. But I have a lot to do that doesn’t include this back and forth. I published excerpts from the letter. I did not publish the entire letter.

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I understand your cynicism but I don’t have time to entertain it.

My work is not centered around these issues.

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And my time is valuable and presently I’m working.

From Robert Baty

That’s another reason justifying my cynicism, Megan.

I think you get it.

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You complain about my casual obserations, and then complain when I want to dig into the details.

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So, for now, let me just clarify that you claimed one or both of Cyndie’s oldest sons wrote to CPS claiming they were willing to have a kinship placement and they never got a reply.

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Is that right?

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And yet, you cannot give me a copy of any such letter or provide a link to where any such letter has been published.

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Is that right?

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My time as valuable as well. We have different interests and different approaches to these things.

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Thanks for your demonstration, and please answer my above questions about the alleged letter.

From Megan Fox

I’m interested in finding ways to help people who I believe have their due process rights violated and children removed. I’m also concerned with reporting what people go through with the court system. What I see you doing is tearing down parents who are already beaten up. Trying to poke holes in their stories. Yes, some of them have screwed up. Yes, some of them may be lying. But the state is not always the innocent party. I take very few stories of people who are dealing with CPS because of the sheer volume of them and also because most people are not good record keepers and don’t have evidence. The ones I do take I have vetted thoroughly. Could I still be fooled? Sure. I did answer your question about the letter. I published excerpts from it but not the entire letter. The letter that I have asks CPS why they have not made an effort to place the boy with family. They never responded. The other correspondence is with the sons and I haven’t asked for it because i am not writing about it. If I did ask I’m sure they would give it. I know you make a habit of publishing people’s private messages to you and while I have said nothing in these exchanges that I am afraid of, I hope you would honor the fact that these messages are of a private nature. I have no desire to get into any pissing contest with you. I am not an “advocate” as you know. I am skepitcal of almost every advocate I have come across. I am a journalist and I report what I can verify over a broad spectrum of topics. I have never had to retract any of my stories. I’ve come to the end of my willingness to continue down this road with you. I appreciate your approach and skepticism because I share it in many aspects. But I simply do not have the time to go back and forth with you on this issue

From Robert Baty

Well, we can talk about me and my work sometime; later, when you are not so busy.

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Again, I just want to be clear about your apparent misleading claims.

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You now write:

– “The letter that I have

– asks CPS why they have

– not made an effort to

– place the boy with family.”

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You clearly led me to believe that the boys volunteered for such a placement. Now, that does not appear to be the case. I take that to be a very important matter and another fine example of why I take the approach I do and why the Abcug case is shaping up to be like so many others I have done a bit of a “case study” on.

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Thanks again, Megan, for your contribution to my involvement in all of these things.

From Megan Fox

What does this mean “for your contribution to my involvement in all of these things.”?

I don’t understand what that means.

From Robert Baty

Well, I have a history regarding CPS cases that catch my attention.

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I’ve dealt with the Schwabs and some of their people.

I’ve dealt with the Holms and some of their people.

I’ve dealt with Andrea Wood, Arlena Willes, and others.

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I haven’t dealt with Cyndie Abcug, but I have dealt with James White, and now you, and I appreciate your contribution to my to my history regarding such things, for what it may be worth.

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If nothing else, it gives me a little more perspective as I might continue to casually observe Cydie Abcug’s public promotion of her narrative and those who may support her therein.

From Megan Fox

I’m not comfortable with how you are categorizing me, Robert.

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If you have an issue with what I have reported or something I’ve said then say it. If you are planning some kind of attack on me for reporting this story, I can assure you I’ve weathered far worse.

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But I find your methods dishonest and sneaky.

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As a “casual observer” you sure spend a lot more time on these issues than anyone could call “casual.” It almost seems obsessive. What do you get out of this? Do you enjoy kicking parents when they are down? Trying to call them liars and the people trying to help them the same? I don’t understand what it is you get out of this hobby of yours.

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Personally, I wish I never had another story like this to cover.

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I’d rather be doing anything else. I get less than nothing out of it only a desire that people don’t lose their children unnecessarily to a known organization rife with corruption.

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What do you get out of this thing that you do tearing others down?

From Robert Baty

If I post anything about the Abcug case I will try to remember to send you the link.

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As I said, I know you are busy, and we can talk about me some other time mutually convenient. I finished tiling my bathroom floor a few days ago, and today is grouting day. .

I’ve prepped the floor a bit and this afternoon I am planning to work up the motivation to get the grouting done.

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You seem to demonstrate a certain hypocrisy in claiming to be concerned about the way I might characterize you while falsely characterizing me. I have found such to also be common as to my adversaries on the CPS issues.

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Maybe we will have time and mutual interest in pursuing these matters further, later.

Maybe not.

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Thanks again for your contribution to the discussion of these important public issues.

From Megan Fox

To clarify: if I think a parent is lying or exaggerating I just don’t cover that story.

It’s why I didn’t cover the Holm story like I told you.

It didn’t add up to me.

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From Robert Baty

In response to a post by Karen Padavan in the thread at the following link, I did reference our private exchange.
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You might take a look and consider joining the group if you want to discuss the case further or respond directly to Karen’s post or mine.
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https://www.facebook.com/groups/kenthovindsworstnightmare/permalink/1310295899139536/

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Megan Fox’s Last Message

 

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